Lorde-Kowz
I have reached Yuki nirvana
I suck at detecting auto tune unless it's really obvious.
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ninetales
Guest
Re:
Sounds to me like she just switched from head voice to falsetto, since the note itself is high D, which is pretty tough to sing with head voice, even in Wakana's range. I tend to get a similar "jumpy" sound when I switch my voice while singing, although I'm not usually in key so perfectly.
Anyway, I'm curious about your reasoning that the performance is "natural". What makes you believe that, and what is your definition of "natural" - simply non-lipsynched, or completely unedited aside from the required mixing?
Mwhlr said:
Sounds to me like she just switched from head voice to falsetto, since the note itself is high D, which is pretty tough to sing with head voice, even in Wakana's range. I tend to get a similar "jumpy" sound when I switch my voice while singing, although I'm not usually in key so perfectly.
Anyway, I'm curious about your reasoning that the performance is "natural". What makes you believe that, and what is your definition of "natural" - simply non-lipsynched, or completely unedited aside from the required mixing?
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garnetjester
Guest
I also think she just switched to falsetto to be able to hit the note. Her voice was in a much better condition back then than in the After Eden DVD, it's striking somehow.
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ringomori
Guest
Yeah, she just switched to head voice there. Like I mentioned previously, most pop singers don't transition smoothly between the registers.
Autotune sounds metallic, unnatural, and gross, lol. The transition between notes is too clean and quick.
Autotune sounds metallic, unnatural, and gross, lol. The transition between notes is too clean and quick.
C
Cerise
Guest
Doesn't autotune sound really robotic? 
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garnetjester
Guest
It depends on how skilled is the person who uses it ie the sound engineer. A lot of the stuff pop stars sing is autotuned, but since there are really heavy background vocals underneath it's hard to notice it. Now that the type of music that's popular allows for its indiscriminated usage it's alright to sound robotic
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Mwhlr
Guest
To me, a "natural" performance is one where the performance itself (Forgetting live lip-synched vocals for the time being) hasn't been tampered with during post-production - This means no rerecording or auto-tuning. I am completely happy for engineers to mix and clean tracks for, say, microphone hits or pops/sibilance; It's a product that fans will pay for, so of course, the sound itself needs to be good. Overall, I want to hear, in the best quality possible, the artists true performance - warts and all.
As for why I think the edited live performances are natural, there are a few reasons.
Other than that little leap that I was curious about, I haven't heard a single hint of auto-tune in any of those videos. The girls use a lot of expression, vibrato and different tones of voice during their performances, and while auto-tune software can preserve these qualities, mix that in with the technicality of the music and I'd expect to hear a few little traces of pitch correction.
I managed to talk to a Kalafina fan who had been at the After Eden Special Live, as well as many of their convention performances. I asked them if they thought that the DVDs gave a genuine account of their singing. They said that the Special Live was the best they'd ever heard Kalafina and that there wasn't any noticeable editing on the DVDs.
With that, I'm pretty satisfied. Given the right setup, rehearsal time and venue, I'm sure Kalafina can pull off stunningly good performances like those on the DVDs.
It depends on how bad the performance was to begin with and how much auto-tune is used. I used a program called "Melodyne" at College - It was utterly ridiculous. It could map out changes of pitch, vibrato, leaps etc and allowed you to edit them with a user-friendly GUI. This is top-tier software and it's getting more advanced with each version (You can now change the individual notes of a played chord).
You could also control how aggressive and accurate the pitch correction was, allowing you to maintain a "natural" vocal sound. Did you want 100% pitch perfect singing? 90%? 80%? It was completely controllable. I only scratched the surface with that program - I can't imagine what pros can do.
During my first year, I was given a bunch of tracks which another student had (poorly) recorded and was told to knock them into something semi-decent. It was a cover of "Dancing in the Street" by a College band. The players were quite good, but the lead vocal was poor - There were a lot of off-notes and she wasn't the best singer to begin with. I used "Melodyne" on the vocal and, I hope you'll agree, the pitch correction is fairly hard to detect. I haven't listened to the track for 2 years and I can only detect, with confidence, one audible "tuned" note. Have a listen yourself if you'd like:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/4p7qcl
The voice is pretty inexpressive to begin with and the vocal part isn't terribly technical, so auto-tune works well with it. I dread the day that auto-tune advances to a point where it's utterly transparent and undetectable, no matter how complicated the part or complex the expression of the voice.
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Mwhlr
Guest
Re:
Accidental double post - sorry!
Accidental double post - sorry!
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ninetales
Guest
Re:
While I do agree that auto-tune itself can be extremely obvious, I don't think that it's the only editing software available in the music world. I noticed that you didn't mention the Studio Magix software in your post - is there some reason why you don't think it was used in place of auto-tuning?
Also, what do you say about the various bootlegged live performances in decent venues where Kalafina's vocals are less than stunning? Despite variations in recording quality, venue and song, I've never heard Kalafina give a vocally perfect performance outside of DVDs. In my opinion, it can't just be the fault of the recording, or various other circumstances. Do you believe there's a technical reason for this?
Mwhlr said:
While I do agree that auto-tune itself can be extremely obvious, I don't think that it's the only editing software available in the music world. I noticed that you didn't mention the Studio Magix software in your post - is there some reason why you don't think it was used in place of auto-tuning?
Also, what do you say about the various bootlegged live performances in decent venues where Kalafina's vocals are less than stunning? Despite variations in recording quality, venue and song, I've never heard Kalafina give a vocally perfect performance outside of DVDs. In my opinion, it can't just be the fault of the recording, or various other circumstances. Do you believe there's a technical reason for this?
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Mwhlr
Guest
Re: Re:
Hello!
I've seen the name "Studio Magix" mentioned quite a few times on the form, but hadn't ever heard of the software before. I had a look on their website and, to me, it just looks like any other Digital Audio Workstation (sound production software, also known as a DAW), like ProTools (the industry standard), Logic or Reaper. Is there something particular about this software that I'm not aware of?
These software packages are for sound recording, editing, mixing and composing. They usually come with an assortment of virtual instruments and effects, one of which is usually an auto-tune effect. Auto-tune isn't a software package outright, but usually comes in the form of a plug in or effect that can be used in conjunction with the DAWs. Melodyne is a piece of standalone software but can be set up to work as a plug in too.
Heavy editing is fairly useless in this situation, as the sound needs to be synchronized to video. Perhaps there's some tightening here and there, but I'd think it would be minimal - In the live bootlegs their timing sounds pretty fine anyway. The only thing I'm aware of that can effectively fix singing is Melodyne and other software specifically designed for pitch correction. Auto-tune is probably the wrong term to use in this situation, as that suggests the nasty robot voice that pop singers seem to be adopting nowadays.
This was what made me so suspicious of the DVDs. Truthfully, I haven't heard enough bootlegs, but I can come up with a few reasons!
The DVD live was Kalafina's show and their show only. The setup would have been completely specific to them, tailor made to ensure they were as comfortable on stage as possible. I'm assuming their is also a Yuki Kajiura sound engineer, who will have a total understanding of Kalafina's audio needs. In events where they are part of a larger bill, they won't be so carefully catered for. They will be lumped in with the other acts, perhaps with sub-par equipment and monitor mixes they aren't totally happy with. They may have an engineer who has a very limited knowledge of their music and who's primary interest is to ensure that they get on and off the stage on time. Singers are probably the worst affected by these kind of things.
On top of this, there is the nature of the concert itself. The Japanese seem to keep very quiet during performances, only applauding and making noise at the end of songs. At festivals and conventions oversees however, crowds are generally very loud - screaming, singing along and clapping (out of time). If concerts are extremely noisy on stage, it must be extremely difficult to nail harmonies and hit the correct notes.
I'm aware that I could be talking utter rubbish. I hope sooner or later I'll be proved right/wrong!
ninetales said:
Hello!
I've seen the name "Studio Magix" mentioned quite a few times on the form, but hadn't ever heard of the software before. I had a look on their website and, to me, it just looks like any other Digital Audio Workstation (sound production software, also known as a DAW), like ProTools (the industry standard), Logic or Reaper. Is there something particular about this software that I'm not aware of?
These software packages are for sound recording, editing, mixing and composing. They usually come with an assortment of virtual instruments and effects, one of which is usually an auto-tune effect. Auto-tune isn't a software package outright, but usually comes in the form of a plug in or effect that can be used in conjunction with the DAWs. Melodyne is a piece of standalone software but can be set up to work as a plug in too.
Heavy editing is fairly useless in this situation, as the sound needs to be synchronized to video. Perhaps there's some tightening here and there, but I'd think it would be minimal - In the live bootlegs their timing sounds pretty fine anyway. The only thing I'm aware of that can effectively fix singing is Melodyne and other software specifically designed for pitch correction. Auto-tune is probably the wrong term to use in this situation, as that suggests the nasty robot voice that pop singers seem to be adopting nowadays.
This was what made me so suspicious of the DVDs. Truthfully, I haven't heard enough bootlegs, but I can come up with a few reasons!
The DVD live was Kalafina's show and their show only. The setup would have been completely specific to them, tailor made to ensure they were as comfortable on stage as possible. I'm assuming their is also a Yuki Kajiura sound engineer, who will have a total understanding of Kalafina's audio needs. In events where they are part of a larger bill, they won't be so carefully catered for. They will be lumped in with the other acts, perhaps with sub-par equipment and monitor mixes they aren't totally happy with. They may have an engineer who has a very limited knowledge of their music and who's primary interest is to ensure that they get on and off the stage on time. Singers are probably the worst affected by these kind of things.
On top of this, there is the nature of the concert itself. The Japanese seem to keep very quiet during performances, only applauding and making noise at the end of songs. At festivals and conventions oversees however, crowds are generally very loud - screaming, singing along and clapping (out of time). If concerts are extremely noisy on stage, it must be extremely difficult to nail harmonies and hit the correct notes.
I'm aware that I could be talking utter rubbish. I hope sooner or later I'll be proved right/wrong!
M
murrue02
Guest
Auto-tune seems kind a hard to detect, but will someone give me a specific example of a singer who uses auto-tune?
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Mwhlr
Guest
Re:
Cheryl Cole for one! :P
Have a listen to this - It has various examples of different degrees of Auto-tune being used in pop music.
http://www.hometracked.com/2008/02/05/a ... -examples/
Singers using Auto-tune live though? I've heard a lot of complaints about it, but I'm unsure of any specific examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8smRRyoYGc
That's one. I think live auto-tune is ridiculous because it's completely obvious. Auto-tune in post production, however, can be much more subtle... or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky57Jo3-BaU
I don't know if this was live auto-tune or added in during post.
No, after doing this research and posting my thoughts here, I am almost 100% convinced that those Special Lives are genuine performances.
murrue02 said:
Cheryl Cole for one! :P
Have a listen to this - It has various examples of different degrees of Auto-tune being used in pop music.
http://www.hometracked.com/2008/02/05/a ... -examples/
Singers using Auto-tune live though? I've heard a lot of complaints about it, but I'm unsure of any specific examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8smRRyoYGc
That's one. I think live auto-tune is ridiculous because it's completely obvious. Auto-tune in post production, however, can be much more subtle... or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky57Jo3-BaU
I don't know if this was live auto-tune or added in during post.
No, after doing this research and posting my thoughts here, I am almost 100% convinced that those Special Lives are genuine performances.
Z
ZoaKaizer
Guest
how about Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga ?
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Mwhlr
Guest
Re:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_VxMatc9uE
ZoaKaizer said:how about Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_VxMatc9uE
Lorde-Kowz
I have reached Yuki nirvana
And Ke$ha.
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ninetales
Guest
Re: Re:
To be honest, I'm actually not very sure what it is myself, but I have suspicions that it's similar to the Melodyne software you've mentioned. I'm assuming that it's mainly used to correct pitch as opposed to tone, since in cases where I think it's used, singers' "unfortunate" moments are preserved, but they're still on-key.
Well, I can safely say that during events such as LisAni, their engineer is again Ohira Yoshio, who works with them during nearly everything, and they normally have their usual live band. Then again, that's a bit of a moot point, since I believe that their performances in those events are also edited.
And speaking of, what do you think of those performances, even down to this year's Animax Musix Magia and Obliviouswith awful band? Or the Manten and TTB studio lives, which were a bit weak at times?
I'm afraid I don't understand your logic, to be honest. You've mentioned Melodyne, which can be used near-undetectably for pitch correction, but you think there's no possibility it or a similar software was used to correct their singing? Also keep in mind that they're under Sony, which I'm sure wouldn't be at all bothered by using the best and most expensive of software.
Honestly, I don't want to sound like a party-pooper, but I find it hard to believe that just a venue tailored to Kalafina's needs could make them sing perfectly in comparison to everywhere else. I've heard various singers who perform well, if not near-perfectly, in any sort of venue, so I guess I'm viewing things a bit cynically here.
To be honest, I'm actually not very sure what it is myself, but I have suspicions that it's similar to the Melodyne software you've mentioned. I'm assuming that it's mainly used to correct pitch as opposed to tone, since in cases where I think it's used, singers' "unfortunate" moments are preserved, but they're still on-key.
Well, I can safely say that during events such as LisAni, their engineer is again Ohira Yoshio, who works with them during nearly everything, and they normally have their usual live band. Then again, that's a bit of a moot point, since I believe that their performances in those events are also edited.
And speaking of, what do you think of those performances, even down to this year's Animax Musix Magia and Oblivious
I'm afraid I don't understand your logic, to be honest. You've mentioned Melodyne, which can be used near-undetectably for pitch correction, but you think there's no possibility it or a similar software was used to correct their singing?
Also keep in mind that they're under Sony, which I'm sure wouldn't be at all bothered by using the best and most expensive of software.Honestly, I don't want to sound like a party-pooper, but I find it hard to believe that just a venue tailored to Kalafina's needs could make them sing perfectly in comparison to everywhere else. I've heard various singers who perform well, if not near-perfectly, in any sort of venue, so I guess I'm viewing things a bit cynically here.
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ritardando
Guest
I'm not joining this wonderful discussion between niney and Mwhlr, but I kind of understand what Mwhlr talked about in his post. I think it's about the comfort-zone, where in their own live show, Kala can use their own special audio staff or sound engineer, which make them perform more at ease and produce their sound better. And maybe on the other events (those events where they're not the only one who performing, or not their special lives), they have to use the sound engineer that provided by the event-holder. Although they may have an audio-rehearsal, it's not a guarantee that the audio on the live is the same as it was in the rehearsal. Maybe it's too low, or too loud because of the performer before them, so the girls kinda have to re-adjust themselves while singing which make their performance is not as good as in their own live.
Ah, forget this. I don't even know what I'm saying LOL
Ah, forget this. I don't even know what I'm saying LOL
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Mwhlr
Guest
Re: Re:
Yes, I agree - those really don't sound good. I originally put the TTB performance down to it being a new song. Wasn't one of the girls ill around that time, too? I know exactly where you are coming from, though. You've been a fan for much longer than I have, so you'll have heard a lot more material than me. The inconsistency of their singing is the biggest issue and is something I have a major problem with. One thing I'll note is that the "sound" of their singing is quite different in the DVD lives - would you agree? There is a confidence and power which is lacking in many of those other lives, which sound shaky and at times, stressed and uncomfortable. That is something that no amount of pitch correction can fix.
If it helps, I will quote a bit of what I got from the fan who had attended the After Eden live because that did influence my thoughts somewhat. I wonder if he/she is a member on here?!
I know I have sort of contradicted myself. Melodyne is indeed brilliant and I think heavily basing my opinion of its capabilities on my own, limited ability with it, was probably not the best idea. I am sure there are engineers who can do incredible things with it. What I will say, though, is that the worse a note is to begin with, the harder it is to make it sound totally human - It's impossible at times. If pitch correction HAS been used on those lives, we can be comforted by the fact that the girls couldn't have been that far off to begin with.
All I can do is give an educated guess, based on previous experience with top quality correction software, the lack of ANY audible trace of pitch correction (baring in mind the technicality and amount of notes they are singing, the amount of expression in the voices, the fact that there is still the odd, blatant wrong note) and the account of the live from the person who was actually there. Could pitch correction have been used to touch up the performances? Quite possibly, but at least it isn't bathed in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcq9rTLP_T4
That is a melodyne video to show you what the software is capable of. You can STILL hear something funny when he adds that leap in the highest harmonization.
We're just going to have to wait for more lives!
Apologies for rambling a bit!
Yes, I agree - those really don't sound good. I originally put the TTB performance down to it being a new song. Wasn't one of the girls ill around that time, too? I know exactly where you are coming from, though. You've been a fan for much longer than I have, so you'll have heard a lot more material than me. The inconsistency of their singing is the biggest issue and is something I have a major problem with. One thing I'll note is that the "sound" of their singing is quite different in the DVD lives - would you agree? There is a confidence and power which is lacking in many of those other lives, which sound shaky and at times, stressed and uncomfortable. That is something that no amount of pitch correction can fix.
If it helps, I will quote a bit of what I got from the fan who had attended the After Eden live because that did influence my thoughts somewhat. I wonder if he/she is a member on here?!
You've mentioned Melodyne, which can be used near-undetectably for pitch correction, but you think there's no possibility it or a similar software was used to correct their singing?
I know I have sort of contradicted myself. Melodyne is indeed brilliant and I think heavily basing my opinion of its capabilities on my own, limited ability with it, was probably not the best idea. I am sure there are engineers who can do incredible things with it. What I will say, though, is that the worse a note is to begin with, the harder it is to make it sound totally human - It's impossible at times. If pitch correction HAS been used on those lives, we can be comforted by the fact that the girls couldn't have been that far off to begin with.
All I can do is give an educated guess, based on previous experience with top quality correction software, the lack of ANY audible trace of pitch correction (baring in mind the technicality and amount of notes they are singing, the amount of expression in the voices, the fact that there is still the odd, blatant wrong note) and the account of the live from the person who was actually there. Could pitch correction have been used to touch up the performances? Quite possibly, but at least it isn't bathed in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcq9rTLP_T4
That is a melodyne video to show you what the software is capable of. You can STILL hear something funny when he adds that leap in the highest harmonization.
We're just going to have to wait for more lives!
Apologies for rambling a bit!
M
murrue02
Guest
Thanks Varete!
Anyway, Justin Bieber songs used auto-tune too right?
Anyway, Justin Bieber songs used auto-tune too right?
