Vocal Discussion of Yuki's Singers

[aero.senpai]

Re:

Cerise said it all, I agree with her. But I just can't quite understand the term legato applied to singing, especially as oposed to vibrato, because they have different applications to me, as said Eei: "Vibrato and legato in singing are two different things for me since you can still sing certain parts in legato and apply vibrato on the last sustaining note..." That's exactly what I understand about these techniques. Or is it anything different than that?

 

[Hime_Wakana]

zoa wrote:himewakana, dont u have some friends sho speak japanese ?

Aye aye I have a Japanese friend *____________*

 

[Martin]

Re:

zoa wrote:himewakana, dont u have some friends sho speak japanese ?

Aye aye I have a Japanese friend *____________*

If it's possible, I think translating any message we send into Japanese would make the best impression...it's more 'direct' and will be easier for the recipient if he or she is busy with doing other things in addition to reading e-mails. I appreciate translation's a time-consuming task, but if you're able to get it done I think it's the best way.

From what I've read of the 'draft' so far I don't think it would sound *bad*..the worst that could happen is our message makes no difference at all.

Re: the voices: yeah, I'd say Keiko's is mellower and 'darker'-sounding and Yuuka's is...not nasal exactly, but I know what you mean. It has this sweet top end.

I often get confused between Wakana's and Hikaru's voices, but one of them has a similarly pleasant handling of high pitches while the other is more comfortable with the in-between registers and has a wonderful knack of adding 'tension' as though she was physically stretching the sound...I'll have to give the vids another watch to get it clear in my mind because I was agonising over whether she was an alto or mezzo-soprano.

I know it sounds weird, but I think of them using their voices like instruments, so think of their singing styles in the same way. Unfortunately, I don't know much about musical theory either and was only able to put the faces to the voices fairly recently too...my brain's still trying to match them up the three voices I hear on the records!

 

[garnetjester]

Wakana is soprano, Hikaru is mezzosoprano and Keiko is alto. I agree it can take a while to get used to all the voices and stuff, but after you get the knack of it it's simpler, especially with the Kalafina girls because their voices are quite distinct, so don't give up

 

[ninetales]

Re:

Rather than ‘breathy’, I’d say Keiko’s voice is quite rich and mellow, so her voice sounds more ‘rounded’ and softer-edged. Kaori I think has the breathy, light, airy voice that sounds very clear and open. Yuuka’s voice is not only high-pitched but it’s also very clear and crisp and quite piercing at times (I believe some people say she sounds quite nasal), so it sounds sharper. Hikaru sounds sharp on high notes because of the way she sings them, I think, it sounds sort of like she pinches(?) (not sure if that’s the right term to use) the notes or otherwise resorts to full-out belting (but then she sounds rough/harsh rather than sharp). But I don’t think Hikaru is a naturally high-pitched singer because she sounds much more comfortable on the lower notes closer to alto. On lower notes she doesn’t sound sharp at all, her voice is much smoother and to me, sort of ‘rolls’ smoothly in the ear. Wakana has a high-pitched voice which is very resonant and which I think is also rich, but in a different way to Keiko’s, and rather than crisp and clear like Yuuka’s it’s smooth and has a fuller sound, which I think is why it doesn’t sound too sharp either. (I always think of Keiko as the vocal equivalent to a cello, Wakana as a violin, I don’t know if it’s just me being weird, but I actually hear some similarities between the texture of the sound the instruments make and the sound of their voices). And Yuriko’s normal voice has a very warm quality to me, her high notes sound richer.

I think you got everything absolutely right

 

[Equalizer]

^+1
cerise is sharp indeed

 

[Kagaribi no Hanabira]

@garnetjester: I think I'm kinda getting it now. We're talking about the natural pitch -- in short, the natural vocal registers. Yuuka and Hikaru has naturally high vocal registers, hence they tend to use chest tone (the screaming) to reach the higher notes or the higher parts...?

With that cleared up, I still don't get the part about the vibrato and legato. As I know, legato is when notes are played in a flowing way, kinda like one note flows naturally to the other like they're connected.

Vibrato and legato in singing are two different things for me since you can still sing certain parts in legato and apply vibrato on the last sustaining note...

In any case, I don't know if there is a different vibrato and legato terms specifically used in singing so do forgive me.

Thanks Cerise for the awesome description..!! As garnetjester and Cerise mentioned, my 'sharp-voice' term is about the 'characteristic' or 'texture' of voice, not the pitch. (However, the 'characteristic' term is referred as 'colour of voice' in music aspect and 'quality of voice' in physics aspect.)

Many people always misunderstood that sharp voice and high-pitched voice is the same thing because your voice tend to be sharp when you sing high note. But you know that we also have high-pitched singers like Wakana or Hanae whose voices are smooth, rounded, and soft, not sharp at all..:).

(Maybe a bit off-topic, but my choir trainer once said that he can draftly indicated soprano&alto singers by their usual speaking voice. Soprano girls tend to have a sharp, sweet&cute voice, while altos have smooth&deep voice. But it's clear that his rule doesn't apply to Keiko... . (I guess that almost all Japanese girls speak in a soprano-like way..lol.))

Now let me clarify about the legato-vibrato stuff... I think all of you have the correct concept for legato&vibrato and I may not make my issue clear enough. I should said that 'Sharp-voiced singers tend to use vibrato TO HOLD THE LONG NOTE instead of legato'. Starting with legato and ending by vibrato is another case (to give a 'different' feeling at the end or sometime, to save the air in their lung..:P.), I concentrate on the case when they completely replace legato with vibrato to whole the long note and I think most of Yuki's singers don't do it in that way... So I'd stop this topic..:P.(It happens with some other singers not relate to Yuki.)

Re: the voices: yeah, I'd say Keiko's is mellower and 'darker'-sounding and Yuuka's is...not nasal exactly, but I know what you mean. It has this sweet top end.

I think the term 'nasal' usually used here doesn't mean that 'it sounds like you have stuffy nose' or sth. like that, but it's a specific term for another voice 'texture' owned by Yuuka (very obvious one) and Hikaru. (but yeah..it really sounds like 'you have stuffy nose') I think J-pop market love nasal voices but for many listeners, it can be very annoying as well. (But I love it so much and I feel that this kind of voices are so rare in western music.)

 

[garnetjester]

^I agree with you completely about nasal voices haha I find them really sweet and lovely, and it's sad to me that people with this kind of voice in the west are considered people "who can't sing"

 

[alarictay]

People without a natural high chest voice have to resort into using their head voice to sing. In order to sing in your head voice, one must have vocal cord closure. In order to obtain the vocal cord closure, the sound is normally focused at the nasal region. Try sing 'Nay' 'Nay' 'Nay' up a scale, being as nasal as possible. U will realize that u can actually hit higher than usual. Normally when i sing Kalafina/Fiction songs (wakana/yuriko parts) i tend to sing 'Nay' instead of the lyrics first, then i remember the nasal feeling and then sing the lyrics. This would allow me to hit the notes without much strain and also with this sense of 'bottomness/chest or support'. Sometimes Wakana/Kaori/Hikaru/Yuuka when singing the higher region tends to be somewhat nasal. But normally girls won't sound too nasal because their natural voice range is higher, but for most guys, they have to go be nasal to hit the high notes in head voice. Hikaru's voice is really nice when its about tenor-alto range. I think it has this really really rich resonance to it. Wakana is very nasal when she hits high notes eg.( Storia Live, Adore live, Lacrimosa live)
Well for Keiko, i think she is the only one who actually does belting( bring of the chest resonance up into the head voice), like in Mune no Yukue live. Well nasal voices aren't really bad
in fact, if done rightly, its really very nice
like Hikaru in in your eyes

 

[Eei]

Re:

Thanks Cerise for the awesome description..!! As garnetjester and Cerise mentioned, my 'sharp-voice' term is about the 'characteristic' or 'texture' of voice, not the pitch. (However, the 'characteristic' term is referred as 'colour of voice' in music aspect and 'quality of voice' in physics aspect.)

Many people always misunderstood that sharp voice and high-pitched voice is the same thing because your voice tend to be sharp when you sing high note. But you know that we also have high-pitched singers like Wakana or Hanae whose voices are smooth, rounded, and soft, not sharp at all..:).

This is the first time I've heard about this. As far as voice typing goes, I know those are the Soprano, Mezzo Soprano and Contralto (for some, they go for Soprano 1, Soprano 2, Alto 1, Alto 2) for females while there's Countertenor, Tenor, Baritone, and Bass (for some, Tenor 1, Tenor 2, Baritone, Bass) for males.

Oh well. You learn something everyday. :D

Also, I guess we also have different meaning for the term "sharp" and high-pitched voice.... As I know, "high-pitched voiced" are the Soprano & Mezzo Sopranos -- they basically sing higher notes since those notes are natural to them, hence they use very minimum effort... unless of course, you ask them to sing parts that's 1 octave higher -- they need serious effort for this.

And I know that the term "sharp" is used when you hit a note, but kinda goes half a note or a whole note higher than what was designated, therefore, you're off tune. Opposite "sharp" is "flat" wherein you sing half or a whole not lower than the designated note. Again, this is a term to indicate that you're off-tune.

(Maybe a bit off-topic, but my choir trainer once said that he can draftly indicated soprano&alto singers by their usual speaking voice. Soprano girls tend to have a sharp, sweet&cute voice, while altos have smooth&deep voice. But it's clear that his rule doesn't apply to Keiko... . (I guess that almost all Japanese girls speak in a soprano-like way..lol.))

This is true to some degree. Japanese women tend to speak in a "kawaii" manner, therefore, they tend to make their voices sound "cutesy" or higher to the ears of common people.

My choir conductor also does this -- after hearing one's speaking voice, he would try to make that person sing several lines of varying ranges to properly categorize them.

As for my case, at first, he thought I was a Soprano by my normal speaking voice. When I started singing, my voice is more rounded and deeper is comparison so I was categorized as an Alto.

Now let me clarify about the legato-vibrato stuff... I think all of you have the correct concept for legato&vibrato and I may not make my issue clear enough. I should said that 'Sharp-voiced singers tend to use vibrato TO HOLD THE LONG NOTE instead of legato'. Starting with legato and ending by vibrato is another case (to give a 'different' feeling at the end or sometime, to save the air in their lung..:P.), I concentrate on the case when they completely replace legato with vibrato to whole the long note and I think most of Yuki's singers don't do it in that way... So I'd stop this topic..:P.(It happens with some other singers not relate to Yuki.)

I'm sorry, I still don't get it. But if you want to stop the legato vs. vibrato, then okay. :D

People without a natural high chest voice have to resort into using their head voice to sing. In order to sing in your head voice, one must have vocal cord closure. In order to obtain the vocal cord closure, the sound is normally focused at the nasal region. Try sing 'Nay' 'Nay' 'Nay' up a scale, being as nasal as possible. U will realize that u can actually hit higher than usual. Normally when i sing Kalafina/Fiction songs (wakana/yuriko parts) i tend to sing 'Nay' instead of the lyrics first, then i remember the nasal feeling and then sing the lyrics. This would allow me to hit the notes without much strain and also with this sense of 'bottomness/chest or support'. Sometimes Wakana/Kaori/Hikaru/Yuuka when singing the higher region tends to be somewhat nasal. But normally girls won't sound too nasal because their natural voice range is higher, but for most guys, they have to go be nasal to hit the high notes in head voice. Hikaru's voice is really nice when its about tenor-alto range. I think it has this really really rich resonance to it. Wakana is very nasal when she hits high notes eg.( Storia Live, Adore live, Lacrimosa live)
Well for Keiko, i think she is the only one who actually does belting( bring of the chest resonance up into the head voice), like in Mune no Yukue live. Well nasal voices aren't really bad
in fact, if done rightly, its really very nice
like Hikaru in in your eyes

I agree to the statement about the chest voice, head voice, and vocal cord closure.

My first voice teacher also made me do the "Nay, Nay, Nay"... I never really understood why and she didn't give me any explanations afterwards.

 

[aero.senpai]

The terms "sharp" and "flat" are used to designate the note halfway between the "natural" ones. So, C# (C sharp) is halfway between C and D - and a Db (D flat) would be the same note (that's called enarmony, I'm not so sure of the term in English). So, if you go a whole note above the intended one, you're not sharp anymore, you hit the other one up the scale. Ah, and there are no such halfways between E and F and between B and C.
But this seems more like a subject to be written in the "Glossary of musical terms" topic, anyway.

 

[Ophelia Arcana]

So anyone here know methods in controlling breathing during singing? Usually I can't breathe when I talk or sing.

 

[garnetjester]

You could try to do exercises holding your breath so that you can hold it for longer, like holdng your breath and counting to ten repeatedly. Also practice breathing between phrases of the songs instead of during the phrase, I think it's something you get better at with time and practice, and the faster paced songs are really difficult because there's no time to draw breaths, but as you become more used to it it will get better.

 

[ninetales]

I've been wondering lately...are there any Kajiura-sensei singers who could do well in singing enka?

I think Keiko might be somewhat good at it...her voice is about the only one I could imagine with the heavy vibrato or "kobushi" as it's called

 

[Yuki88]

afaik, nope. It's not like Kajiura's composition would fit enka either... unless they made special music arrangement

 

[aero.senpai]

I don't like that crazy heavy vibrato, so I don't even imagine them singing like that. But I don't think their voices would fit it, with the possible exception of Keiko, maybe...? But it would soud strange, at least, to me

 

[Kagaribi no Hanabira]

Re: Re:

Also, I guess we also have different meaning for the term "sharp" and high-pitched voice.... As I know, "high-pitched voiced" are the Soprano & Mezzo Sopranos -- they basically sing higher notes since those notes are natural to them, hence they use very minimum effort... unless of course, you ask them to sing parts that's 1 octave higher -- they need serious effort for this.

And I know that the term "sharp" is used when you hit a note, but kinda goes half a note or a whole note higher than what was designated, therefore, you're off tune. Opposite "sharp" is "flat" wherein you sing half or a whole not lower than the designated note. Again, this is a term to indicate that you're off-tune.

I think we have the same definition for high-pitched voice. It's just voice with high register. In fact, 'sharp' that I use isn't the technical term in music. You can call that kind of voice as 'crisp', 'small', or even 'ear-bleeding' for the worst case... .

Texture of voice is what makes violin sounds different from flute, makes Wakana sounds different from Hikaru, even when they are played or sing the same note, it still sounds different. So it isn't about the 'pitch' at all. I don't know which word is the most commonly used in English, but I guess it should be 'sharp'. Aero-senpai already clarified the second part...:).

I've been wondering lately...are there any Kajiura-sensei singers who could do well in singing enka?

I think Keiko might be somewhat good at it...her voice is about the only one I could imagine with the heavy vibrato or "kobushi" as it's called

My choice is....Yuriko.... . but if you allow me to choose inactive ones, I'd choose Chiaki&Mika Arisaka.

This one may be a bit off-topic, but I've discussed with my friend about 'country songs' of East Asian countries, and we found that Japanese 'Enka', 'Chinese opera', Korean 'Trot', and Thai 'Look Toong' share a common identity, that is 'heavy vibrato', while western 'country songs' don't have it... . (How about other countries in Southeast Asia..?)

 

[Lorde-Kowz]

Re:

I've been wondering lately...are there any Kajiura-sensei singers who could do well in singing enka?

I think Keiko might be somewhat good at it...her voice is about the only one I could imagine with the heavy vibrato or "kobushi" as it's called

Eri Itoh, me thinks.

 

[Cerise]

I’ll try to illustrate how I interpret ‘sharper’ (referring to Yuuka’s voice) by using (you can probably guess that I love these! ) a metaphor to express it in physical terms. Imagine if a voice could be made tangible, i.e. you could actually reach out and touch it with your hands. If I could ‘feel’ Keiko’s voice, it’d feel velvety, warm, quite solid but soft. Keiko’s voice has a ‘soft edge’ for me, hence the ‘furry’ sort of feel.

In contrast, Yuuka’s voice is smooth, thinner, colder, not as soft, almost metallic. It’s kind of ‘hard-edged’; when she sings with the other girls, you can almost feel or ‘hear’ it cutting through the other voices. A more detailed way to express this: e.g. in ‘sing a song’, even though all the girls are singing together and no one girl is louder than the others, Yuuka’s voice is one of the clearest I can distinguish. Like I said before, it almost ‘cuts’ through, whilst the other voices sort of settle and cling around it, they ‘coat’ her voice, if you will. They don’t stand out as much, but rather blend into one another and sort of fill in the ‘gaps’ like honey or glue, giving overall cohesion and softening the ‘hard’ edge.

Similarly in Angel Gate live, when Wakana and Yuuka sang together, Wakana’s voice sort of ‘rounded out’ the ‘hard edge’ of Yuuka’s voice and gave it a bit of ‘cushioning’, so to speak. I wouldn’t say Wakana had a ‘sharp’ voice (referring to her old, pre-whatever-it-is-that’s-ailing-her voice) because her voice blends more than Yuuka’s does. Both of them give me a ringing, sort of ‘metallic’ feel, but they’re different at the same time. Yuuka has a hard edge to her voice, Wakana has a soft edge. I guess you could almost say I’d imagine Yuuka’s voice as almost blade-like, but Wakana’s as a rounded rod.

But a 'sharper' voice isn't necessarily a bad thing as a lot of people seem to think - I think Yuuka is more successful as a solo/main singer because her voice can stand out so easily against all the stuff in the background, chorus + musical accompaniment. Keiko’s soft voice also contributes to what makes her (in my opinion) the best harmoniser because it doesn’t push out or intrude on the main line, but rather her voice can integrate really well and sort of ‘mold’ itself to fit with other voices. In comparison to Yuuka, though, sometimes I’ve noticed Wakana’s voice get overwhelmed by the background music and chorus (especially with Hikaru’s powerful voice), like in the recorded version of symphonia, some parts of manten, even in to the beginning. She’s singing the main line and should stand out more but blends in too much with the background instruments and Hikaru/Keiko on harmony. That’s also why I think Yuuka probably was the best choice as main vocalist for ‘silent moon’ because her voice is probably the only one that can hold its own the easiest and maintain the melody clearly against four/five other voices, even if the background voices are made softer in the studio.

Recently Wakana’s started going into ‘sharp’ territory probably because of aforementioned stress/fatigue/overworking/bad health etc. I think her voice is hoarser now than it used to be, so she’s sharper on the high notes where she used to be smooth and rougher on the low notes where she used to sound more velvety and gentle-mode-Keiko-like.

 

[Equalizer]

^well said

Yuuka has that unique tone that cut through the rest of her sisters. Yuuka's voice brings hope and tenderness no matter how sad the song may be, a solid light that shines in the darkness compared to the 3 girls of Kalafina which most of the time brings the dark effect to place.
Kaori comes next after yuuka in clarity and power as seen in angels gate during FJ live her tone always carries a tale behind "soulful, I would put it" That is why Yuki had her perform the verses of "Stone Cold".

FJ's main will most likely be always Kaori and Wakana the "Strong and Soft" side on the vocal part. Keiko as usual she's needed as the harmoniser while Yuriko's tone is perfect for Kajiurago both of them combined would bring an ethereal effect to the song. Hikaru comes somewhere between Yuuka and Yuriko she is able to fill in extra feel or backup in both vocal and chorus department. That said, Yuki did not place FJ's first vocalist right in front for nothing.