Kajiuras music quality is dropping?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Chibi-Chibi
  • Start date Start date
That depends on what you're expecting from the artist. If the artist has never been innovative to begin with, you may not even be bothered by the repetitiveness of their songs. But if the artist CAN and CREATES different and creative songs, now, that's another story. That's the case with Kajiura for me. That was what Tsukiko Amano represented to me (until she released that ridiculous last album and I found myself glad for her decision to quit singing as Tsukiko Amano) and also Ayumi Hamasaki to some extent (until she began to release bullshit after bullshit, great).
You know, I've dropped many artists because I've lost interest in them, to the point that I would not even notice their new releases. And I think I have a new candidate.
 
Re: Re:

Rafael-sama said:
After listening to some of Akiko Shikata's songs, for me, they are all the same.

OK, fine. BRING IT ON. It will probably make me seem like a Shikata fanboy even more but whatever - I think these are facts rather than opinion.

First of all let me say that I have no intention of making you Akiko Shikata's new fan or changing your opinion of her songs being "all the same" - I will not even bother mentioning that Shikata is only working with her own voice while Kajiura works with mostly other people. (Oops! I just did, teehee.) I will simply give you an example of why she is far superior to Kajiura at making the best of her songs. This is so simple and obvious that I really cannot see anyone counter this in Kajiura's favor.

I took their latest anime songs - "stone cold" and "Utsusemi" but this would work with almost every Kajiura song and almost every Shikata song. Listening to 15 seconds of every link should be more than enough to make my point.

!!! the utsusemi youtube is really loud compared to stone cold !!!

stone cold verses: 0:52 vs 2:28
stone cold refrains: 1:19 vs 2:55
Is there anything different other than lyrics? Nope.

Utsusemi verses: 0:31 vs 2:01
Utsusemi refrains: 1:10 vs 2:39
Is there anything different other than lyrics? I wonder...

The conclusion: Yuki Kajiura often develops, lets say, a 15 second idea which actually does sound cool (!) and then she tends to hammer us with said idea for the whole track instead of actually working it. There are sadly not that many exceptions to this rule.
 
If you think Shikata is creative, she's all your, my friend.

Even SCANDAL is better. Oh, wait, I'm a SCANDAL fanboy, so, let it go. :knife:
 
Considering you didn't even bother responding to my comments I assume you have nothing to add to this thread's discussion but flaming other performers.

Thank you for your input.
 
This shouldn't be a topic about which artist is better than Kajiura and so on, but really, SCANDAL? Although, they have one thing in common with Kalafina - both can't sing live.
Also, it seems to me that you didn't even try to understand what grunty is talking about.

Grunty, let me ask you two things that made me curious. When you talk about changes in the song, are you talking about the melody, the arrangement, or even both?
And also, you bought the KnK Ongakushuu didn't you? It seems strange to me that a soundtrack that, albeit being one of my favorites, is not really innovative, caught your attention If you can, could you please tell me why you like it? Out of curiosity.
 
Is there anything different other than lyrics? Nope.

Just posting to agree with you so hard I could cry. This has been a huge problem with me for ages, and I've been saying it forever.
 
Re:

grunty said:
Considering you didn't even bother responding to my comments I assume you have nothing to add to this thread's discussion but flaming other performers.

Oh, so you can do critics. And I can't think that Akiko Shikata is lame? Every single song of the Harmonia album feels the same, sounds the same, and, well, I would rather sleep then hear it again. So, this is flaming other performers? I like ALI PROJECT, but, as I said before, the majority of their songs is repetitive. So I'm flaming AP? Oh My...
 
Re: Re:

Rafael-sama said:
After listening to some of Akiko Shikata's songs, for me, they are all the same. And yeah, if Yuki's music is repetitive, what would someone say about ALI PROJECT? And I really like ALI.
I'm agree with your idea about ALI PROJECT (at least, in the anime songs), but Akiko Shikata definitely is not repetitive.

grunty said:
The conclusion: Yuki Kajiura often develops, lets say, a 15 second idea which actually does sound cool (!) and then she tends to hammer us with said idea for the whole track instead of actually working it. There are sadly not that many exceptions to this rule.
And this is unfair: Yuki composed songs with distinct verses/refrains. Kagayaku no..., Hoshikuzu, Himitsu. I have to say that I understood your comment as "Yuki copypaste a part of the instrumental, Akiko copypaste+add something more".
 
And this is unfair: Yuki composed songs with distinct verses/refrains. Kagayaku no..., Hoshikuzu, Himitsu. I have to say that I understood your comment as "Yuki copypaste a part of the instrumental, Akiko copypaste+add something more".

I think those are the "sad exceptions" that Grunty was talking about, though feel free to correct me.

Even though I still like listening to them, it's mainly because of how much I love Keiko, Wakana and Hikaru's voices. Kalafina, for me, is about them. Not Kajiura, since she kind of tends to be a bit repetitive with her songs, and it's like they have the same minute over and over again, extended to ridiculous amounts. I have a lot of trouble with long songs, anyway.

a 15 second idea which actually does sound cool (!) and then she tends to hammer us with said idea for the whole track

Is the best way of describing it.
 
Re: Re:

grunty said:
Rafael-sama said:
After listening to some of Akiko Shikata's songs, for me, they are all the same.

OK, fine. BRING IT ON. It will probably make me seem like a Shikata fanboy even more but whatever - I think these are facts rather than opinion.

First of all let me say that I have no intention of making you Akiko Shikata's new fan or changing your opinion of her songs being "all the same" - I will not even bother mentioning that Shikata is only working with her own voice while Kajiura works with mostly other people. (Oops! I just did, teehee.) I will simply give you an example of why she is far superior to Kajiura at making the best of her songs. This is so simple and obvious that I really cannot see anyone counter this in Kajiura's favor.

I took their latest anime songs - "stone cold" and "Utsusemi" but this would work with almost every Kajiura song and almost every Shikata song. Listening to 15 seconds of every link should be more than enough to make my point.

!!! the utsusemi youtube is really loud compared to stone cold !!!

stone cold verses: 0:52 vs 2:28
stone cold refrains: 1:19 vs 2:55
Is there anything different other than lyrics? Nope.

Utsusemi verses: 0:31 vs 2:01
Utsusemi refrains: 1:10 vs 2:39
Is there anything different other than lyrics? I wonder...

The conclusion: Yuki Kajiura often develops, lets say, a 15 second idea which actually does sound cool (!) and then she tends to hammer us with said idea for the whole track instead of actually working it. There are sadly not that many exceptions to this rule.


I think Rafael meant more like,if you don't like a kind of music all sounds the same?Otherwise it's just out of place.
Even Scandal is better Rafael?How can you compare poetry and art like Akiko's music to Scandal? Compare pop with pop if you like...
And i am not saying liking pop is some lower class taste.I listen to pop as well.But it's not like i can compare Akiko or Yuki's older OSTS to AKB48 or whatever.
Also,about the fact all the songs being the same..you told me you only listened to Harmonia before?Akiko's albums have a theme,just so you know.Harmonia's songs have nothing to do with Raka,Navigatoria and Ar Tonelico OSTs.And i could go on forever.Not liking it doesn't mean all the songs are the same.

I don't know how is this related to Kajiura's music though :XD:
 
Don't really know what further replying is worth now but I didn't want to leave it as it was so here goes. (Along with responses to other stuff directed at me.)

Rafael-sama said:
If you think Shikata is creative, she's all your, my friend.

Even SCANDAL is better. Oh, wait, I'm a SCANDAL fanboy, so, let it go. :knife:
Rafael-sama said:
Oh, so you can do critics. And I can't think that Akiko Shikata is lame? Every single song of the Harmonia album feels the same, sounds the same, and, well, I would rather sleep then hear it again.
Listen, "my friend" (as you so kindly put it),
(1) You (not me) expressed your low opinion on Shikata in response to complaints about Kajiura so, since I happened to be familiar with said artist, I responded back with simple examples to continue the discussion on "Kajiura's decline". It wasn't an "oh I hate Kajiura because she sucks" post - it was all on topic.
(2) I did not even comment on Shikata's "creativity" here myself so I don't know where you got it from. Seems to me like you just wanted to "attack" her or me for the sake of it. I suppose with how you're boasting about you consider it a success. More power to you.
(3) As I said in my previous post, as this is a Kajiura board, I don't give a shit what your opinion on Shikata's originality/creativity/repetitiveness is and I have no bloody intention of changing your opinion. Not once did I try to make you like her more.
(4) Bite me.

KP-X said:
And also, you bought the KnK Ongakushuu didn't you? It seems strange to me that a soundtrack that, albeit being one of my favorites, is not really innovative, caught your attention If you can, could you please tell me why you like it? Out of curiosity.

I'm not really sure what you're asking here. As for it's creativity, for example, I don't think I heard Kajiura do anything like the (IMHO fairly complex) "lalala"s in the first movie before.

I am very critical of Kajiura/whoever copypasting the "in the garden of sinners" Kajiurago to every other track (to the point where it really felt tacked on the track as an afterthought) and I certainly did not enjoy "garan-no-dou" consisting of basically two longish ARIA arranges.

In case you wanted to ask why I'm not complaining about, what I sometimes call, Shiki's battle theme (basically the strings version of "in the garden of sinners") that is because I treat it as such - a strong thematic entity which appears in different incarnations throughout a single score. I don't think it ever was copypasted - it was always a new arrange and with its place in the score.

There's also a difference between unrelated tracks/songs using the same exact melody/musical solutions and ones within a score. At least that's what I think.

Don't really know what else to comment on. :)

Kazado said:
And this is unfair: Yuki composed songs with distinct verses/refrains. Kagayaku no..., Hoshikuzu, Himitsu. I have to say that I understood your comment as "Yuki copypaste a part of the instrumental, Akiko copypaste+add something more".

I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that anything is better than a continuous direct copypasta of ~15secs over a 5+ minute long song. Whether you like the changes or not. The Utsusemi verse example was IMHO definitely not simply "adding more things" but whatevs, I wasn't the one getting Shikata involved here. :P

Bracing for topic getting locked or me getting banned. At least I made my peace.
 
Honestly, I agree as well, but I don't know of that is because I am biasing everything she had made after KnK: Remaining Sense of Pain OST. That is my favourite work of hers, and I think that me comparing everything to that kinda blurs my judgement..
 
Re:

ninetales said:
fans who feel personally betrayed by this change and are yelling in caps and insulting the band.

That's a very nice point. For me, an old fans, this is a betrayal that Yuki didn't change her style. Yuki was always about change. Noir, Madlax, .hack, petite Cossette (her old works) sound different than each other.
The change shouldn't always good ... it can be bad, but that's matter of taste (roll eyes). But since PH, KnK, Mai Otome, yuki's works are similar to... tsubasa.

I don' know why, maybe -again- it is because of the genre of the animes she composing for, but all new works of her sound generic.

A good artist is someone who retains his identity in his work, yet still able to differentiate his works in each albums, and adapt it with the time. For me Yuki was just like a person with enneagram type 4 and wing 3... not she is only 4.

I think, one of Yuki's main problem in creating album (which doesn't have many example, except Kalafina), is lack of concept and theme.
 
I agree with you in general, although I can't say PH and Madoka are that similar. Of course, I'm biased about finding any fault with following Tsubasa concept - partly because I cn't stop fanboying over this work, and partly because with the plot concerning different worlds, themes and settings, Tsubasa is an EXCELLENT example of variety within an OST. Pop, rock, jazz, opera, salon music, eastern themes, Irish-flavoured pieces, techno, orhestral epics and violin pieces... This was the OST which raised Yuki Kajiura from a first-heard name to one of my fave composers practically overnight, and it did so for a reason. :shy:
Speaking of which, I don't quite see PH or KnK as similar to Tsubasa, but I certainly see RHH OSTs (especially the second) as such. I wonder why they're often omitted from discusion. For those who long for variety, wasn't Storia main theme a rather fresh take? I fail to remember such melodies in Yuki's previous works.

As to the concept in albums, I have an impression that Yuki tries to compile them by the mood rather than concept. Whether she succeeds would also be a matter of IMHO and YMMV abbrviations, it seems. :ayashii:
 
I dont post much here but this topic seens rly interesting.

Just an opinion of someone that listen to her songs for long time and likes her work very much.

I like old kajiura compositions of years ago more than the ones she did recently, but i dont think the music "quality" is dropping. Its the artist choice to compose in one style or another.

For me songs like lacrimosa, gloria, sprinter, ongaku, and others of her osts like canta per me II are just immortal and shows that she knows how to make great music. If she is not doing it now, it is bk she is trying new things.

Also, something i dont undestand is why ppl complain about the music being repetitive. Pachebel´s Canon in D is 6 minutes of playing the same 8 chords one after the other, Bach spent his whole life composing baroque, and many artist have one style and stick to it forever and are just awesome. Why cant others do that too?

Also about osts, they are meant to be osts, not to draw the full attention of the ones watching the anime. When u compose for osts u have to be careful to make it sound beautiful and at same time dont draw all the attention. You cant judge how much a composer is capable of based in osts.

I think anyone that knows how to compose a song notices her compositions are outstanding and how much hard work and effort she puts in them, and "quality" dropping, being repetitive, etc r kinda out of question. What matter is the feeling that u get when u listen to it.
 
^ I like your comment
clicks "LKE" button
People are expecting so much about Yuki coz she's so great? XD just wanna cool our heads. .btw, I think Akiko-san isn't superior than Yuki.I wanna hear more about Yuki's voice harmony using different people than Akiko-san, but I shouldn't comment more.I like Yuki's works coz it's by Yuki. Nick said it all for me too.Tastes and standards do vary after all. .
 
Why cant others do that too?

Because it makes all the work sound similar and repetitive. I don't know or particularly care about how she composes, since I only compose in my free time for fun and that's only on GarageBand (lol), but I can definitely say that - as a person who just listens to how music sounds - it all has an extremely similar feel. Music isn't about how the sheet music looks, it's about how the final product sounds. And the final product sounds like the same minute stretched over five times that length.

I still like listening to things that she composes (mostly, because I only really like Kalafina because of the singers, actually) since she's relatively capable at it, but that doesn't mean her compositions aren't getting steadily more formulaic, or even that they're any good.

Plus, being a fan of something isn't ignoring the flaws or excusing them so you can pretend they don't exist; that's just being in denial. Being a fan of something means recognizing the flaws and still liking it despite them. So you can acknowledge Kajiura makes persistant mistakes throughout her compositions and still like her, you know, instead of going "oh but that's _____". And "well _____ does this TOO" and "at least it's not _____" are the worst arguments ever, and whenever anyone has to resort to that, it's clear that they've lost the debate. Kajiura should be able to stand on the merits of her own work, not the failings of other peoples'.

:...:
 
I like Yuki's works coz it's by Yuki.

LOL, sounds like a valid diagnosis for us. :XD:

Being a fan of something means recognizing the flaws and still liking it despite them.

These factors differ, too. Applied to myself, being a fan rather means recognizing the flaws and not giving a damn about them. :ohoho: That has something to do with personal standards, too, I assume. There's no denying that I'm generally tolerant about repetitiveness that even I acknowledge, provided I like the artist anyway. The most recent examples would be Yura Hatsuki and Yousei Teikoku who both have quite a number of similarly modeled songs. I also like Ali Project despite having been exposed mostly to their anime contributions (and they do give the impression that anime producers tend to want Katakura to serve them "something like what you did for that Bee Train animu back in 2001"). And I easily admit that both Mike Oldfield and Elton John (the two whales who share the top of my personal chart with Yuki) are prone to repetitiveness. I just fail to care, because their music still has that certain something that made me their fan. And while they have it, I'll follow their works.

It's also a matter of style here to me. I don't place Yuki to stand on others' failings but on the fact that she does something I believe the whole industry should be doing by now but doesn't seem to bother to - successfully blending pop and classic trends. This IS my IMHO, and that may not be such a merit in Japanese music where we know a good number of artists doing just that, but I, who have grown up on Russian and Western pop music, can't but draw comparisons - and they're hardly in favour of even the UK/US where Japan supposedly drew most modern pop music trends from. That's what makes me insist that Yuki's music is good. Stating such a thing without comparison will always be downright subjective since there are not many unanimously accepted criteria for good pop music, and what is good to one may be bland at most to another. But if I compare Yuki to the whole industry, including Western and Eastern European pop, it looks clear that she stands out from quite a crowd. Plus it seems a proved point already that she's able to compose beautiful music. Again, not to everyone, but to me these two factors definitely sum up to make the definition of GOOD. The comparison with those artists who also qualify completely in both criteria may very likely lower the degree of Yuki's "phenomenality" - but I choose not to indulge in debates over her being better/worse than Akiko Shikata/Mikiya Katakura/Yoko Kanno/KOKIA/[insert name here]; I tend to see this bunch as the same league.

And concerning the value of "____ does that, too" arguments... I thin kI need to repeat again - my comments on repetitiveness stuff are meant to show not that "others are just as faulty as Kajiura" but that "Kajiura doesn't do anything which is prosecuted in the industry". If it was, I doubt she would be continuing it thus far. A lot of artists are prone to using old recipes time and time again, a lot of people in their fandoms are prone to getting tired of those recipes and the resulting predictability sooner or later. Disappointment is not a feeling to be blamed for; the general angst regarding the artist's state of creativity that may derive from this disappintment is what the more loyal (read: unbothered) fans [with possibly lower demands/standards, if you like] will always find questionable. As much as we may get bored of new song and OST decisions, Kalafina, Madoka and Pandora Hearts attract people to Yuki's name just as .hack//SIGN OSTs did back in the early 2000s. And it shows that repetitiveness and decreasing quality are not always the companions in an artist's career. :tea:

Then again, I'm afraid I have this opinion regarding Verthand's question that Ponti quoted:

Pachebel´s Canon in D is 6 minutes of playing the same 8 chords one after the other, Bach spent his whole life composing baroque, and many artist have one style and stick to it forever and are just awesome. Why cant others do that too?

You see, Bach, Pachebel and other "practical scholars of music" as I call them are not the best examples for this question. Remember how I told Grunty that not many people in pop music do music "for the art"? That's the difference. A classically-trained genius dedicating his or her life to traditional classical school WILL do it for the art. Such people create things to be used for reference, practice and textbook study for years to come (even if those years start counting long after their death). I don't say they didn't compose because they liked it, but the way their genius worked made it so - and their heritage, however repetitive, was accepted as a cornerstone of music. Of course, most of their works may remain known only to music academy graduates, but they are not considered to be strictly for mass appeal anyway. Making their heritage mass-appealing is what pop music is meant to do when it comes close to synthesis of modern and classic. But pop music doesn't have the demands of classical music, and alas, neither does it have the luxury to consist of copypaste sheets alone. Because it is POPULAR music - catering to people's thoughts, feelings and moods, both concrete and vague, both lasting and brief, both elated and mundane. Plus pop artists, regardless of the money question, make music because they like making music, more often than not. And if you mean to be popular in that, playing the same piece all over again with minor chord variations may get you in serious trouble even with a Mozart level talent. :ayashii: :ohoho: Normal music fans, unlike trained critics, tend to be more outspoken about such things because they are not obliged to value it all for scholarly purpose only.

Which is, to a certain extent, an explanation to how this thread appeared. :plot:

All in all, this IS a forum, so there is room for negative opinions and positive retorts (and vice versa, I guess :psst: ). Like I said, I find it mostly fun. Not to mention that some of our more constant critics' attitude has already become amiably memetic and actually somewhat of a guidance point. Whenever I see that Grunty says he liked something, I can't help thinking "Oh wow, then this is a first priority MUST CHECK item". :XD: Having a comrade with demands and standards higher than yours can be very rewarding. :ayashii:
 
Just to add my voice to the 'repetitive' discussion...

I don't mind repetitiveness in songs myself. (Unless it's endlessly repeated choruses like Hey Jude, an endlessly repeated guitar solo like giru's Freesia, or an endlessly repeated phrase for a chorus like that song Coldplay just performed on Dave Letterman.) Modern-day songs have developed that way; they have lines and choruses, which usually end up being the same every time they come around. Unless they're extremely unoriginal/boring/etc., I personally think such repetitions are fine. (I can't speak for Shikata-san, because I don't listen to her.)

Otherwise, songs that sound almost the same from the same artist, like Kagayaku/Everytime and Hello Goodbye/Hajimari no Keshiki (and almost all the songs by Kesha), are a little more strange to me. I'm like Nick Hunter - since I love Kajiura-sensei to pieces, I can take similar-sounding songs from her. But they still do stand out, and sometimes (especially in the case of instrumental pieces) they take away a little bit of enjoyment from the listening process.

My opinion, of course :innocent:
 
Back
Top