Japanese grammar / vocabulary

[yuki.n]

Just because ninetales asked...

Strictly speaking, the imperative is formed like this:
(examples)
taberu → tabero
nomu → nome

and the negative imperative is formed by just appending a -na to the infinitive:
taberu → taberuna
nomu → nomuna

However, these are considered quite rude and there are several ways to make more polite imperatives. Most of them are using the -te form.

Most usually you'd see the "yonde kudasai" form (switching to yomu to avoid sonkeigo issues), or even "yonde kure" if you're quite familiar with the other person, but you can even form a negative question, such as "yonde kurenai?" or "yonde itadakemasenka?" (the latter one being extremely polite)

In everyday speech (or lyrics), sometimes the -te form can be an imperative by itself, with the "kudasai" or similar being omitted. A typical example is the first phrase of "Nowhere":

Tamashii no hanashi wo kikasete yo
Let me hear the story of your soul

the same "kikasete" being in "symphonia", which is the reason I started this thread at the first place. :)

 

[ninetales]

Thank you! I'll definitely take this into consideration when I translate lyrics from now on.

 

[yuki.n]

Douitashimashite! Glad to help out! If you have any more questions, just ask me!

 

[yuki.n]

Abusing this thread to post Japanese-helping tools.

One is http://jisho.org , as I mentioned - a VERY good online dictionary. Linux users can use gjiten/kiten which is based on the same dictionary (edict), I don't know if there's a Windows equivalent that still uses edict.

Another one (a VERY COOL one) is Rikaichan for Firefox or Rikaikun for Chrome. Just get the plugin, let it install the dictionary, enable it, and put your mouse over a Japanese word - it will pop up the translation of that word! (Not only for a single Kanji, it also works for a whole word, including a few expressions!!!)

 

[ninetales]

^ Wow, that's very cool indeed! I'm going to go download it right now.

Thank you! You're a fount of good Japanese things~

 

[Kugayama]

Thanks yuki.n, I hadn't installed gjiten nor enamdict yet.

My other favourites besides Rikaichan, include ibus-mozc for Japanese input, tagainijisho for meanings and stroke order help, and gucharmap for looking at CJK, Hiragana and Katakana characters. Current fonts include fonts-ipafont-mincho and fonts-ipafont-gothic.

Running Debian GNU/Linux on both pc's here.

 

[Kugayama]

PS, I'd also like to know about recommended books for learning Japanese including writing, conversational, keigo...

 

[moichispa]

I suggest you to start learning just formal writting expresion don't just jump on everything.

And forget about Keigo now. It is not something begginers should try to learn suddently It is not something you would use as a tourist at all.

 

[Kugayama]

^ I read up on keigo more to get an idea of ideas of politeness than remembering several levels of politeness, and since most of the books and the teacher I have teach an acceptable level of politeness, that is sufficient.

Maybe I'm just keen to look at everything to see how it all fits together (-:.

 

[missjasminnn]

Yeah, you need to learn everything before keigo first since it does get difficult and confusing. Most college students in Japan are still bad in keigo well, most Japanese people in general hahaha my mother is still kinda ehhh in keigo since we don't really use it here in America much haha

I've read up on some of my friends' Japanese learning books and so far, they seem pretty amazing. I recommend genki by Japan times. I think I've seen them in japanese bookstores! They work both ways. They teach Japanese people English while teaching Japanese learners.

If anyone wants, I can always put some stuff in here about keigo. I have a love/hate relationship with it and I think I'm kinda good in it

 

[Kugayama]

^ Well books like "Japanese for busy people" by AJALT teach a good level of politeness and books like "Minimum Essential Politeness" explain the keigo system, but some other books and song lyrics are not a good guide to polite Japanese usage. (Mind you, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya was a good illustration of a desire for punctuality).

 

[yuki.n]

@missjasminnn Please put some stuff about keigo in here!

I had studied some things about keigo in my class so I can understand it, but when it comes to saying something myself, I simply can't...

 

[missjasminnn]

^ i will put some stuff soon then
i'll try to make it simple

@kugayama, people who study japanese more in depth get introduced to keigo during their intermediate level and in japan, middle school. my friends study japanese and use genki and honestly, their japanese is getting better & better each week. they got introduced to keigo their intermediate level and even then, they said it was super confusing when i read through their genki books, they teach keigo at a pace so it's just not slapped in their faces

 

[Kugayama]

@missjasminn, the book "Minimum Essential Politeness" mentioned that people who had been high school exchange students in Japan but didn't continue studying the Japanese language after that had trouble picking up keigo later as they had never been introduced to it.

Starting with the basic level of politeness and the way one refer's to one's own group (family, company) and to others like the AJALT book helps make the extension to many levels of politeness more straightforward.

 

[missjasminnn]

^ i'm talking about college level japanese. dunno about high school level...

well, i'm glad that book helps then!

@yuki.n

i'm copying and pasting what i wrote for ninetales. here's the beginning part of keigo


食べる→めしあげる
飲む→めしあげる
いる、行く、来る→いらっしゃる
見る→ごらんになる
言う→おっしゃる
する→なさる
くれる→くださる
寝る→おやすみになる

every other verb is お + masu stem + になる

待つ→お待ちになる
etc etc

some examples:

すしを食べたの？ (casual)
おすしを食べましたか。(formal)
おすしをめしあげましたか。(keigo)

子がいるの？(casual)
お子さんがいますか。(formal)
お子さんがいらっしゃいますか。(keigo)

待ったの？
待ちましたか。
お待ちになりましたか。